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Re: [ddlm-group] Space as a list item separator>
- To: Nick.Spadaccini@uwa.edu.au, Group finalising DDLm and associated dictionaries <ddlm-group@iucr.org>
- Subject: Re: [ddlm-group] Space as a list item separator>
- From: "Herbert J. Bernstein" <yaya@bernstein-plus-sons.com>
- Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 17:30:26 -0500 (EST)
- In-Reply-To: <C73D04ED.12759%nick@csse.uwa.edu.au>
- References: <C73D04ED.12759%nick@csse.uwa.edu.au>
I thought you had your vote and had decided not to support commas in lists, but if it is still being discussed ... Actually, while I agree that it is probably an error to have ,, for ,., it is likely to be a recoverable error, so I have included the option of such recovery in CIFtbx4 and will be adding it in CBFlib, but in both cases as conditional on whether commas are allowed. -- Herbert ===================================================== Herbert J. Bernstein, Professor of Computer Science Dowling College, Kramer Science Center, KSC 121 Idle Hour Blvd, Oakdale, NY, 11769 +1-631-244-3035 yaya@dowling.edu ===================================================== On Thu, 3 Dec 2009, Nick Spadaccini wrote: > If commas are to be separators in lists or tables then yes they must appear > within delimited strings only, and are restricted from the character set for > non-delimited strings - I didn't include commas in last email on > non-delimited restrictions. > > Depending on the votes we may not need to consider commas as special. > > As for adjacent commas there seems to be a view that one should "create > data" in these situations. Both . and ? have very specific and different > meanings (though there are erroneously used interchangeably) but above all > they are user specified values. That is the user is telling you that the > value is either ? or . Adjacent commas is a error, and in my opinion one > from which you cannot recover. To infer from [1,2,,3] that the value is ? or > . is no different to inferring 0, -99 or "blah". Even if it were inferred to > be ?, what does that mean to a list that is bound to be operationally within > some dREL code. What does the evaluator do with ? ? > > Nick > > On 3/12/09 3:00 AM, "Joe Krahn" <krahn@niehs.nih.gov> wrote: > >> I assume that quoting rules are the same: any string containing >> delimiter characters must be quoted. Normally, that is just whit space, >> but includes comma in the list context. >> >> Also, are adjacent commas invalid, or valid as the undefined ".", or as >> the unknown "?"? >> >> Joe >> >> Nick Spadaccini wrote: >>> Since this issue is not yet fully closed, for clarification as delimiters of >>> tokens within a compound data type, comma and space are not exactly >>> equivalent. The delimiters (that are equivalent) are >>> >>> [:space:]+ # --- for white space delimited >>> >>> [:space:]* , [:space:]* # --- for comma delimited >>> >>> [:space:] matches a single whitespace character, * is the Kleene Star >>> meaning zero (0) or more instances of a matche and + is the Kleene Plus >>> meaning one (1) or more instances of the match. >>> >>> With that qualification, I agree with Herb's assessment. >>> >>> On 1/12/09 8:35 PM, "Herbert J. Bernstein" <yaya@bernstein-plus-sons.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> If both comma and space are permitted then I would treat >>>> >>>> [1, 2, 3 4 ] or [1,2,3 4] >>>> >>>> as equivalent and equivalent to >>>> >>>> [1 2 3 4] and [1 , 2 , 3 , 4] and [ 1 2 3 4 ] >>>> >>>> At least that is the way I have coded CIFtbx and CBFlib. >>>> ===================================================== >>>> Herbert J. Bernstein, Professor of Computer Science >>>> Dowling College, Kramer Science Center, KSC 121 >>>> Idle Hour Blvd, Oakdale, NY, 11769 >>>> >>>> +1-631-244-3035 >>>> yaya@dowling.edu >>>> ===================================================== >>>> >>>> On Tue, 1 Dec 2009, John Westbrook wrote: >>>> >>>>> Could I ask for a clarification of the interpretation of a mixed case >>>>> such as: >>>>> >>>>> [1, 2, 3 4 ] or [1,2,3 4] >>>>> >>>>> If quote and space are permitted are the above going to satisfy the >>>>> syntax requiremens? >>>>> >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Herbert J. Bernstein wrote: >>>>>> First amending the arguments >>>>>> >>>>>> To summarise the arguments: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. In favour of both space and comma >>>>>> - comma is used in some other non-CIF contexts as a list delimiter >>>>>> - comma allows a large subset of lists and arrays to be carried >>>>>> opaquely in CIF 1 and CIF 1.1 documents. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Against comma: >>>>>> - A single type of separator makes the grammar simpler >>>>>> - Space is used everywhere else in CIF as a separator (consistency) >>>>>> - Comma can then be used in non-delimited strings >>>>>> >>>>>> Then >>>>>> >>>>>> I vote for comma and space -- Herbert >>>>>> >>>>>> ===================================================== >>>>>> Herbert J. Bernstein, Professor of Computer Science >>>>>> Dowling College, Kramer Science Center, KSC 121 >>>>>> Idle Hour Blvd, Oakdale, NY, 11769 >>>>>> >>>>>> +1-631-244-3035 >>>>>> yaya@dowling.edu >>>>>> ===================================================== >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, 1 Dec 2009, James Hester wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear CIF2 people: the time has come to vote on the list item separator >>>>>>> issue. Firstly: as far as I know, nobody is against space as a >>>>>>> separator, >>>>>>> so spaces will be possible list item separators. Some may be against >>>>>>> commas, so this vote is on whether or not to allow commas. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To summarise the arguments: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. In favour of both space and comma >>>>>>> - comma is used in some other non-CIF contexts as a list delimiter >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2. Against comma: >>>>>>> - A single type of separator makes the grammar simpler >>>>>>> - Space is used everywhere else in CIF as a separator (consistency) >>>>>>> - Comma can then be used in non-delimited strings >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Space only: Nick, James (Nick is here) >>>>>>> Comma and Space: ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 5:30 PM, James Hester <jamesrhester@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> More specifically, CIF1.1 excludes square brackets as the first >>>>>>> character in a non-delimited string. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 9:33 AM, James Hester <jamesrhester@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Dear Herbert: as CIF 1.1 doesn't define lists, I'm not >>>>>>> sure why you suggest that the example below is a valid >>>>>>> tag. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 12:36 AM, Herbert J. Bernstein >>>>>>> <yaya@bernstein-plus-sons.com> wrote: >>>>>>> Sorry something got lost in the prior message. >>>>>>> It should have >>>>>>> read: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Back to the question of commas. >>>>>>> If you accept the desirability of >>>>>>> having a CIF 1.5, commas in lists >>>>>>> become very useful. Someone with >>>>>>> a CIF 1.1 editor will be able to >>>>>>> prepare a CIF 1.5 file for many >>>>>>> useful cases by doing all lists >>>>>>> with commas and no embedded blanks >>>>>>> as long as they can make their >>>>>>> lists fit on single lines. In CIF >>>>>>> 1.1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> is a valid value for a tag, but >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> is not. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, neither example is a valid CIF 1.1 tag. CIF 1.1 explicitly >>>>>>> excludes brackets as the first character of a non-delimited >>>>>>> string. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Having the option of commas in lists >>>>>>> will help to smooth the >>>>>>> transition for at least some people. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > > cheers > > Nick > > -------------------------------- > Associate Professor N. Spadaccini, PhD > School of Computer Science & Software Engineering > > The University of Western Australia t: +61 (0)8 6488 3452 > 35 Stirling Highway f: +61 (0)8 6488 1089 > CRAWLEY, Perth, WA 6009 AUSTRALIA w3: www.csse.uwa.edu.au/~nick > MBDP M002 > > CRICOS Provider Code: 00126G > > e: Nick.Spadaccini@uwa.edu.au > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ddlm-group mailing list > ddlm-group@iucr.org > http://scripts.iucr.org/mailman/listinfo/ddlm-group > _______________________________________________ ddlm-group mailing list ddlm-group@iucr.org http://scripts.iucr.org/mailman/listinfo/ddlm-group
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