Re: [ddlm-group] Space as a list item separator

Dear all

I was chatting with the man who 'writes the cheques' yesterday about some of the
changes he might expect with CIF2, and based on this I feel I ought to at least have
a go at exploring a 'minimally disruptive' approach, so at the risk of being shouted at,
here goes at a slightly different way of looking at CIF:

CIF contains a list of strings separated by whitespace.

A string can be nondelimited or delimited.

Nondelimited strings have a restricted character set (minimally whitespace is excluded)

A nondelimited string cannot start with any of the delimiters (obviously)

Nondelimited strings can have special meaning governing what follows them:

��� reserved words, e.g. loop_

��� tags, e.g. data_ , _foo

��� single-byte nondelimited strings, e.g. [ ] { } :

All other strings are treated as raw data values


There, least I can say I tried :-)

Cheers

Simon

---

From: SIMON WESTRIP <[email protected]>

To: Group finalising DDLm and associated dictionaries <[email protected]>

Sent: Saturday, 28 November, 2009 10:01:38

Subject: Re: [ddlm-group] Space as a list item separator

I had been under the assumption that the separation of list items by a comma was 'set in stone'
(and was one reason for dropping the CIF1 syntax of requiring space after data values),
but if its up for negotiation I would opt for using the space as a separator as elsewhere in the CIF,
partly because then a list can essentially be treated much like a single-item loop - i.e. same basic parsing
of <value><space><value><space>...

Cheers

Simon

---

From: Herbert J. Bernstein <[email protected]>
To: Group finalising DDLm and associated dictionaries <[email protected]>
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 27 November, 2009 11:43:10
Subject: Re: [ddlm-group] Space as a list item separator

Dear Colleagues,

� I have no objection to accepting either comma or whitespace
as a valid separator in a list.� I can't object -- I have been
coding to that standard since 1997, and now would only have to
remove the message generated for the case of the space.� We already
accept multiple glyphs as valid separators at all levels:

� whitespace itself it one of several character sequences in rather
complex combinations:� any number of blanks, tabs, newlines and comments.
The comma itself is handled in a complex way.� We accept (or should accept) any whitespace before and after a comma as valid, as in
{a,b} versus {a , b }.� Adding the option of leaving out the comma
itself and just having the whitespace as the separator make just
as much sense.

� I see nothing to be gained by now forbidding the comma.� The meaning of {a,,b,} is the same as {a,.,b,.} or {a,?,b,?} or, under this new (and I think more sensibsle and realistic approach) {a . b .} or {a ? b ?}.

� The blank reads particularly well in dealing with vectors and matrices. The comma reads well when dealing with strings.

� I think we would do best with both as valid alternatives (no error, no warning for either one).

� Regards,
� � Herbert =====================================================
Herbert J. Bernstein, Professor of Computer Science
� Dowling College, Kramer Science Center, KSC 121
� � � � Idle Hour Blvd, Oakdale, NY, 11769

� � � � � � � � +1-631-244-3035
� � � � � � � � [email protected]
=====================================================

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009, SIMON WESTRIP wrote:

> At first glance, you're considering using space instead of commas as list
> separators?
> which is not so far away from the CIF1 requirement of space following a
> delimiter?
>
> But I'm only on my first cup of coffee this morning :-)
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> From: Nick Spadaccini <[email protected]>
> To: Group finalising DDLm and associated dictionaries <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, 27 November, 2009 7:46:44
> Subject: Re: [ddlm-group] Space as a list item separator
>
>
>
>
> On 27/11/09 2:32 PM, "James Hester" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > See comments below:
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Nick Spadaccini <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >> Timely email, come in just after the one I sent.
> >>
> >> My position is if we specify the syntax then we encourage its correct use
> but
> >> acknowledge that there may be cases where one might be able to recover
> >> intent. But I wouldn?t encourage those cases.
> >
> > Absolutely, which is why I would like to elevate space-separated list
> items to
> > be correct syntax rather than 'wrong but intent is clear' syntax.
> >>
> >> You could say that token separator in lists are a or b or c, but that
> just
> >> adds a level of complexity for very little gain. The choice of comma
> makes it
> >> seamless to translate from the raw CIF data straight in to most language
> >> specific data declaration. The only language I know that accepts one or
> the
> >> other or both is MatLab.
> >
> > Re ease of translation: you speak as if a viable approach to a CIF data
> file
> > is to take whole text chunks and throw them at some language interpreter,
> > without doing your own parse.� Quite apart from being a rather unlikely
> > approach, this is impossible, as without parsing you won't know where the
> list
> > finishes.� If you do do your own parse, you can populate your
> datastructures
> > directly during the parse, and what list separator was originally used in
> the
> > data file is completely irrelevant.
> >
> > Re complexity: not sure how you are planning to deal with whitespace in
> the
> > formal grammar, but consider the following, where I have assumed that each
> > token 'eats up' the following whitespace.
> >
> > <dataitem> = <dataname><whitespace>+<datavalue>
> > <datavalue> = {<list>|<string>}<whitespace>+
> > <listdatavalue> = {<list>|<string>}<whitespace>*
> > <list> = '[' <whitespace>* {<listdatavalue>
> > {<comma><whitespace>*<listdatavalue>}*}* ']'
> >
> > If we make comma or whitespace possible separators, the last production
> > becomes:
> > <list> =� '[' <whitespace>* {<listdatavalue> {<comma or
> > whitespace><listdatavalue>}*}* ']'
> >
> > This looks like no extra complexity, and from a user's point of view
> > whitespace as an alternative separator is simple to understand and
> consistent
> > with space as a token separator used everywhere else in CIF.� Anyway, if
> > reduction of grammar complexity is your goal, you can just completely
> exclude
> > commas as list separators!
>
> Why not? Make them spaces only, and you become consistent across the board.
> I have to think about the possibility of pathological cases where spaces
> won't work. I can't think of any at the moment.
>
> >
> > Some questions about how commas behave:
> > 1: is a trailing comma e.g. [1,2,3,4,] a syntax error?
> > 2. are two commas in a row a syntax error? E.g. [1,2,3,,4]
>
> I would say yes to syntax error. I an easily determine they may need to be
> an additional list value, but can't determine what.
>
> > Note the above productions assume that the answer to both is yes.
> >
> >>
> >> What big advantage to a language is there to specify you can use a comma
> or
> >> whitespace as a token separator? Will you be happy with the first person
> who
> >> interprets this as being ok
> >>
> >> loop_
> >> ��_severalvalues 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 # these being the 7 values of
> severalvalues
> >>
> > Note sure what you are getting at here: I am proposing the following:
> >
> > _nicelist����� [1 2 3 4 5 6 7]
> >
> > being the same as
> >
> > _nicelist����� [1,2,3,4,5,6,7]
> >
> > �Don't see how this relates to loops.
>
> The point was, once you say a space and comma are equivalent token
> separators then will it be an interpretation that they are always so even in
> loops? My example was not a list, just 7 values that were separated by
> commas not spaces.
>
> >
> > James.
> > ------
> >>
> >> On 27/11/09 11:41 AM, "James Hester" <[email protected]
> >> <http://[email protected]> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear All: looking over the list I posted previously of items left to
> >>> resolve, I see only one serious one outstanding: whether or not to allow
> >>> space as a separator between list items.� Nick has stated:
> >>>
> >>> " I will propose it has to be a comma, but make the coercion rule that
> space
> >>> separated values in a list-type object be coerced into comma separated
> >>> values. That is, read spaces as you want, but don't encourage them."
> >>>
> >>> I would like to counter-propose, as Joe did originally, that whitespace
> be
> >>> elevated to equal status with comma as a valid list separator.� I see no
> >>> downside to this.� Would anyone else like to speak to this issue before
> we
> >>> vote?� In particular, I would be interested to hear why Nick doesn't
> want to
> >>> encourage spaces.
> >>
> >> cheers
> >>
> >> Nick
> >>
> >> --------------------------------
> >> Associate Professor N. Spadaccini, PhD
> >> School of Computer Science & Software Engineering
> >>
> >> The University of Western Australia ���t: +61 (0)8 6488 3452
> >> 35 Stirling Highway �������������������f: +61 (0)8 6488 1089
> >> CRAWLEY, Perth, �WA �6009 AUSTRALIA ��w3: www.csse.uwa.edu.au/~nick
> >> <http://www.csse.uwa.edu.au/%7Enick>
> >> MBDP �M002
> >>
> >> CRICOS Provider Code: 00126G
> >>
> >> e: [email protected] <http://[email protected]>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >
> >
>
> cheers
>
> Nick
>
> --------------------------------
> Associate Professor N. Spadaccini, PhD
> School of Computer Science & Software Engineering
>
> The University of Western Australia� � t: +61 (0)8 6488 3452
> 35 Stirling Highway� � � � � � � � � � f: +61 (0)8 6488 1089
> CRAWLEY, Perth,� WA� 6009 AUSTRALIA� w3: www.csse.uwa.edu.au/~nick
> MBDP� M002
>
> CRICOS Provider Code: 00126G
>
> e: [email protected]
>
>
>
>
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