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Re: [ddlm-group] Eliding in triple-quoted strings: Proposals C andD. .. .. .

1.  Having made several passes at creating CIF2 treble quote parser
(with and without elides), at least for me it would be a lot simpler
to have the python spec as a template.  I have been programming for 
50 years, and I am a long way from being comfortable that I 
understand what the CIF2
spec says and I most certainly do not yet understand what it means.  If
you understand the current CIF2 spec and have some sample code, especially
for dealing with the string and bracket construct parses, I would
appreciate a copy of your code.

2.  One of the major problems with CIF is a lack of solid documentation
and supporting software.

3.  If we don't settle the CIF syntax and semantics, we will have
a hard time doing reliable dictionary-based validation.

Oh well, I guess we can just wait another 3 years to get around to
settling CIF2.  Montreal is a lovely city.

I believe Ralf is right.

Regards,
   Herbert



At 1:38 AM +0000 1/8/11, SIMON WESTRIP wrote:
>Thanks Herbert, but I'm not convinced by these arguments:
>
>1. Without the python variation, creation of a CIF2 parser is simpler
>
>2. I would hope that users wouldnt have to refer to third-party 
>documentation to understand CIF2.
>
>3. For journals and archives, CIF syntax issues are far more easier 
>to deal with than CIF-dictionary-compliance issues
>(at least in my experience).
>
>So, if I were to have a meaningful vote, I would reject Ralf's 
>proposal, but recognising the shortcomings it addresses,
>would hope that we could agree upon a fairly simple eliding system 
>that at least allowed any string to be delimited in
>CIF (like the 'line-folding mechanism') and if desirable, an ASCII 
>representation of unicode chars.
>
>Anyway, I will retire now (past my bedtime in the UK :-)
>
>Cheers
>
>Simon
>
>
>
>From: Herbert J. Bernstein <yaya@bernstein-plus-sons.com>
>To: Group finalising DDLm and associated dictionaries <ddlm-group@iucr.org>
>Sent: Saturday, 8 January, 2011 1:04:18
>Subject: Re: [ddlm-group] Eliding in triple-quoted strings: 
>Proposals C and D. .. .. .
>
>Dear Simon,
>
>   Adoption of Ralf's proposal will ...
>
>   1.  Make it much easier to create a CIF2 parser, because for one of
>the messiest parts of the code we will have a clear specification,
>sample code and a way to validate the tough cases.
>
>   2.  Make it easier for users to conform the the quoting rules, because
>at least that one part of CIF2 will be thoroughly documented with lots
>of examples.
>
>   3.  Make is easier for the journals and archives to deal with "odd"
>CIF2 files containing complex treble quoted strings because at
>least  that one part of CIF2 will be throughly documented with lots
>of examples, and, with a utility (IDLE) all ready to allow them
>to pull out a troublesome treble-quoted string and figure out what
>it means or what it might mean if some intuitive change were made.
>
>   Yes, if Ralf's proposal happens to be rejected, we will still have
>a problem in the lack of elide handling, and yes we will have to
>put in the time an effort to consider those alternatives, but, first,
>in order to have some chance of finishing the specification of CIF2
>before the summer meeting deadlines (at least one of which is in
>just a little more than 3 weeks), might it not be a good idea
>to discuss and consider what was actually proposed instead of
>chasing after lots of plausible alternatives that we already discussed
>and rejected, and so are not very likely to agree upon rapidly now.
>
>   So, before I will delve into the many subtle variations of elide
>mechanisms, I would appreciate our finishing consideration of Ralf's
>actual proposal:
>
>=======================
>
>His revised wording (with one correction) is:
>
>========================
>
>CHANGE 7 NEW
>
>
>Triple-quote delimited strings.
>
>The following ASCII sequences delimit the beginning of a string:
>
>     """
>     '''
>     r"""
>     r'''
>     u"""
>     u'''
>
>The characters following the delimiter sequence are interpreted
>with exactly the same algorithm as implemented for triple-quoted
>strings in the Python programming language version 2 series.
>In this algorithm, triple-quoted strings are terminated by matching
>""" or ''' delimiters.
>
>For example
>
>     """He said "His name is O'Hearly"."""
>     r'''In {\bf \TeX} the accents are \' and \".'''
>
>Triple-quoted strings provide a reliable mechanism for storing any
>arbitrary string in a CIF2 file.
>
>=========================
>
>This is cleaner and simpler than the original change 7 wording.
>It probably does not conflict with existing CIF1 documents and the
>_only_ CIF2 documents it can conflict with are the very few
>that happen to end in \""" or \''''.  The new leading delimiters
>r""", r''', u""" and u''' will have to be added to the list of forbidden
>starts to white-space delimited data values in change 5.  In exchange for
>this minor adjustments to valid CIF2 syntax we gain a fully documented,
>software supported way to include arbitrary strings in a CIF2 document
>that people are already used to working with.
>
>I have reviewed the discussion of the "use of elides in strings"
>thread in the ddlm-group discussion list, and, while I did not
>then and do not now understand the objections to the general use
>of elides in quoted strings, I particularly do not understand
>the logic of objecting to the use of elides in treble-quoted strings,
>which are a construct completely new to CIF and therefore in
>conflict with no existing data files.
>
>Would those who have an objection to Ralf's proposal please
>state their objections.  An objection that says we object because
>in past discussions another body could not manage to come to an
>agreement and just gave up does not speak to the merits of this
>specific proposal.
>
>I have no idea why we are considering other proposals before
>settling the status of Ralf's proposal.
>
>I agree with Ralf's proposal.
>
>Regards,
>   Herbert
>
>At 12:37 AM +0000 1/8/11, SIMON WESTRIP wrote:
>>Dear Herbert
>>
>>I fail to see how the adoption of python string quoting rules is going to
>>make life easier for anyone other than a python programmer?
>>Even then, the mechanism is restricted to treble-quoted strings,
>>which are only
>>one part of CIF. Maybe I've missed something, but just because CIF 
>>might share
>>common syntax with a programming language in one respect, does not
>>necessarily mean
>>that the tools of that medium are available to CIF?
>>
>>If you're looking to base CIF extensions on established mechanisms,
>>why not adopt
>>the minimal \(newline) and \\ escape sequences, which in essence are
>>the same as
>>the established CIF line-folding protocol (just dropping the initial
>>\ following the opening
>>delimiter and formalising the protocol as an inherent part of the
>>spec). Afterall, I beleive you
>>have already been using it, or at least interpreted it, as a means
>>to escape 'semicolon delimiters' within
>>semicolon-delimited values (I seem to recall discussions that
>>identified an issue with the published 'trip tests'
>>relating to line folding).
>>
>>Forgive me if I have missed something regarding the usefulness of
>>python in CIF; please enlighten me
>>as to its benefits if I were to write a CIF reader using anything
>>but python. As far as I can see, the only
>>advantages lie in the fact that the logic is established and thus
>>unquestionable; but that does not mean it is
>>necessarily entirely appropriate for CIF (which afterall isn't a
>>programming language).
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>Simon
>>
>>
>>
>>From: Herbert J. Bernstein 
>><<mailto:yaya@bernstein-plus-sons.com>yaya@bernstein-plus-sons.com>
>>To: Group finalising DDLm and associated dictionaries 
>><<mailto:ddlm-group@iucr.org>ddlm-group@iucr.org>
>>Sent: Friday, 7 January, 2011 23:07:40
>>Subject: Re: [ddlm-group] Eliding in triple-quoted strings:
>>Proposals C and D. .. .. .
>>
>>Dear Colleagues,
>>
>>   Ralf's proposal is what it is.  Before we go haring off in other
>>directions, we should respond constructively to what he has proposed.
>>I support it.  Ralf and John W. support it.  John B. and James H.
>  >oppose it.  I think they are mistaken because ...
>>
>>   It is well and good to adopt a "Real Programmers Don't Each
>>Quiche" let's-start-from-scratch-and-roll-our-own approach when
>>you have the resources to accomplish our goals that way.  It
>>is a lot of fun, and has the potential to truly advance the
>>field, but it is also, in the current funding climate, unrealistic.
>>
>>   In the U.S., there is a serious prospect to science funding being
>>cut back so severely that the hit rates on grants next year may
>>be as low as 1 in 10.  I suspect an honest review of funding prospects
>>in other countries will uncover similarly dire warnings.
>>
>>   This does not mean we are all going out of buisness, but we do have
>>to be careful to conserve resources and focus our do-it-from-scratch
>>efforts on those areas that have the highest priority, and I fear,
>>for most of our community, CIF2, while important, is not likely to
>>be seen as worth that approach, and certainly filing the edges of
>>a brand-new treble quote spec is likely to be very far down
>>on anybody's priority list.
>>
>>Ralf has made a proposal that will save all of us a lot of effort
>>and allow us to devote more resources to higher priority problems.
>>
>>Not only is he right on this one point, but I urge us to look for
>>other areas where we can get to CIF2 by building on work that is
>>already done.
>>
>>This is not a good time for wheel-reinvention.
>>
>>I would appreciate knowing from those who wish to reinvent this
>>particular wheel, why they wish to do that and from where they
>>expect to get the resources to do it?
>>
>>Regards,
>>   Herbert
>>
>>=====================================================
>>   Herbert J. Bernstein, Professor of Computer Science
>>     Dowling College, Kramer Science Center, KSC 121
>>         Idle Hour Blvd, Oakdale, NY, 11769
>>
>>                   +1-631-244-3035
>> 
>><mailto:<mailto:yaya@dowling.edu>yaya@dowling.edu><mailto:yaya@dowling.edu>yaya@dowling.edu
>>=====================================================
>>
>>On Fri, 7 Jan 2011, Bollinger, John C wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>   On Friday, January 07, 2011 3:14 PM, Herbert J. Bernstein wrote:
>>>
>>>>   We seem not to be communicating effectively.
>>   >>
>>>>   What I am asking for is an _existing_, supported treble quote 
>>>>specification
>>>>   from an _existing_ language with _existing_ documentation and
>>>>   _existing_ software as an alternative to the Python specification,
>>>>   documentation and software to which we all have access, that is being
>>>>   proposed as an alternative
>>>>   to what Ralf has proposed.
>>>
>>>   Thank you for that clarification.  You are right, I didn't understand
>>>   what you were asking for.
>>>
>>>   I hope this will likewise clarify my position: I reject the premise that
>>>   the system we choose must meet those criteria, and I oppose adopting the
>>>   full Python syntax and semantics.
>>>
>>>>   The Python specification is available at
>>>>
>>>>
>>>><<http://docs.python.org/reference/index.html>http://docs.python.org/reference/index.html><http://docs.python.org/reference/index.html>http://docs.python.org/reference/index.html
>>>>
>>>>   with the lexical analysis at
>>>>
>>>>
>>>><<http://docs.python.org/reference/lexical_analysis.html>http://docs.python.org/reference/lexical_analysis.html><http://docs.python.org/reference/lexical_analysis.html>http://docs.python.org/reference/lexical_analysis.html
>>>
>>>   Thanks, though that is exactly what I was looking at already.  It leaves
>>>   several details unclear, some of which I discussed in previous messages.
>>>   Hence, I consider it slightly short of a *full* specification.  It does,
>>>   however, provide my grounds for opposing adoption of that scheme for
>>>   CIF.
>>>
>>>>   The complete source code and binaries are available at:
>>>
>>>   Unless you propose to append a particular set of Python sources to the
>>>   CIF specification as a reference, I have no interest in perusing the
>>>   source code to seek answers to such questions of detail as I have.
>>>   Furthermore, I would oppose adding such an appendix on the grounds that
>>>   it would be exceedingly difficult to use to resolve questions such as
>  >>  mine.
>>>
>>>   I am likewise unwilling to rely on the behavior the python binary that
>>>   happens to be installed on my computer to answer them.  If the correct
>>>   behavior is not documented independent of the program then there is no
>>>   particular reason to trust that it won't change in future versions, or
>>>   that any particular implementation is correct or bug-free.
>>>
>>>
>>>   Regards,
>>>
>>>   John
>>>
>>>   --
>>>   John C. Bollinger, Ph.D.
>>>   Department of Structural Biology
>>>   St. Jude Children's Research Hospital
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Email Disclaimer:
>>><<http://www.stjude.org/emaildisclaimer>http://www.stjude.org/emaildisclaimer><http://www.stjude.org/emaildisclaimer>www.stjude.org/emaildisclaimer
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
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>
>--
>=====================================================
>   Herbert J. Bernstein, Professor of Computer Science
>     Dowling College, Kramer Science Center, KSC 121
>         Idle Hour Blvd, Oakdale, NY, 11769
>
>                   +1-631-244-3035
>                   <mailto:yaya@dowling.edu>yaya@dowling.edu
>=====================================================
>_______________________________________________
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-- 
=====================================================
  Herbert J. Bernstein, Professor of Computer Science
    Dowling College, Kramer Science Center, KSC 121
         Idle Hour Blvd, Oakdale, NY, 11769

                  +1-631-244-3035
                  yaya@dowling.edu
=====================================================
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