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Re: [ddlm-group] The Grazulis eliding proposal: how to incorporateinto CIF?. .. .. .

I seem to have missed seeing the positive feedback on 'simplification'
of the quoting rules.  Could you point me at the messages?

At 1:24 PM +0100 6/29/11, SIMON WESTRIP wrote:
>Hmmm ... and there was I thinking that we may still some sort of 
>elide system for the quoted strings...
>Of the CIF changes, I seem to recall that the 'simplification' of 
>the quoting rules actually received
>positive feedback when the changes document was made more widely available, so
>I would be surprised and reluctant to see a reversal at this stage.
>From: Herbert J. Bernstein <yaya@bernstein-plus-sons.com>
>To: Group finalising DDLm and associated dictionaries <ddlm-group@iucr.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, 29 June, 2011 12:22:39
>Subject: Re: [ddlm-group] The Grazulis eliding proposal: how to 
>incorporate into CIF?. .. .. .
>Dear Colleagues,
>Having slept on this, I have a proposal -- that we return string
>handling as completely as possible to CIF1 conventions in supporting DDLm.
>   Please recall the following from the original proposal on this
>form of elide:
>"5. If the prefixed text fields are implemented, arbitrary values can
>be represented in CIFs at least as conveniently as can text fields in the
>current CIF1.1 format. Thus, there is strictly speaking no need for the
>"""/''' strings, and one could simplify CIF2.x by omitting them
>altogether. However, the proposed method is orthogonal to the """/'''
>string format, and thus both can be implemented simultaneously if
>in other words, part of the proposal was to drop the treble quotes
>entirely, i.e. to return at least in part to CIF1 string handling.
>I suggest we complete the process and restore the CIF1 parse for all
>quoted strings, i.e., that we _not_ terminate a quoted string scan for
>the terminal quote on the first occurrence of the terminal quote,
>but only on the first occurrence of the terminal quote followed by
>white space.  The only place in DDLm where this causes a problem is
>within bracketed constructs in the handling of the terminal bracket,
>the comma or the colon immediately after a terminal quote mark or
>in dealing with an unquoted string.    I propose that within the
>bracketed constructs _only_ we terminate the scan for a closing quote
>delimiter on the combination of the quote delimiter followed by any of:
>     whitespace
>     comma
>     the closing bracket
>     colon
>This will preserve almost all existing CIFS (e.g. the ones with 'O''')
>as valid, unchanged, and limit our parser changes for CIF2 primarily
>to the handling of the new bracketed constructs and of this new elide
>convention.  There is some small risk of invalidating existing CIFS
>in adopting the new elide convention at the parser level rather than
>at the semantic convention level, but, after sleeping on it, I agree
>that that risk is minimal.
>   Herbert
>At 6:17 PM -0400 6/28/11, Herbert J. Bernstein wrote:
>>Dear John,
>>     There is nothing terribly wrong with any one aspect of the
>>CIF2 document.  My problem is that for me it does not hang
>>together as a coherent whole espcially on the issue of
>>string representation.  Right now to me it is an uncomfortable
>>mixture of CIF1 and Python string handling, and, as I have
>>repeatedly stated, I would prefer to change to being entirely
>>consistent with Python.  If that is not to be, I would prefer
>>to go back to CIF1 string handling.  That is and has been my
>>position for a very long time.
>>     If something I have said in the past discussions is not clear,
>>I will be happy to amplify, but right now I don't know what
>>I can say that would not have me repeating myself.
>>     Regards,
>>       Herbert
>>   Herbert J. Bernstein, Professor of Computer Science
>  >    Dowling College, Kramer Science Center, KSC 121
>>           Idle Hour Blvd, Oakdale, NY, 11769
>>                   +1-631-244-3035
>>                   <mailto:yaya@dowling.edu>yaya@dowling.edu
>>On Tue, 28 Jun 2011, Bollinger, John C wrote:
>>>   Dear Herbert,
>>>   On Tuesday, June 28, 2011 1:46 PM, Herbert J. Bernstein wrote:
>>>>     I fear we are not comunicating very effectively.
>>>   Evidently not.
>>>>   I am
>>>>   _not_ comfortable with the current state of the CIF2
>>>>   document, and I do not find the current emendation to
>>>>   be an improvement.
>>>   Your opinions about the document and the proposed change are entirely at
>>>   your discretion, of course, but it does come as a surprise to me that
>>>   you think the entire changes document unsatisfactory.  If there are
>>>   issues with it that you have not previously brought before the group
>>   > then I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to hear and perhaps
>>>   comment on them before Madrid.  Even those who will actually be present
>>>   in Madrid might appreciate the opportunity to consider those issues
>>>   ahead of time.
>>>   As far as I am aware, the only point of CIF 2.0 syntax remaining open
>>>   for discussion is the (in-)ability of CIF 2.0 to represent arbitrary
>>>   strings.  Inasmuch as both this working group and COMCIFS already
>>>   approved the changes document, I would be very reluctant to reopen it
>>>   for general changes.  Nevertheless, if you have discovered serious flaws
>>>   in it then better to fix them sooner than later.  Otherwise, it is
>>>   unproductive to criticize proposals for being based on the only document
>>>   available to base them on.
>>>>   Much as I would dearly love to have
>>>>   the current line-folding protocol in CIF2, I think it
>>>>   is much more important to work on making CIF2 into
>>>>   something clear and coherent.  I for one find the
>>>>   either-or approach to prefixes and line-folding unnecessary
>>>>   and confusing.
>>>   Line folding and prefixes are compatible.  Saulius pointed this out in
>>>   his initial description of the protocol, as a group we commented on it
>>>   in our subsequent discussion, and my formal proposal from earlier today
>>>   specifically and explicitly provides for them to work together.  I'm not
>>>   sure how you acquired an impression to the contrary, but if it was from
>>>   my text then please explain so that I can improve it.
>>>>   When working with old fortran compilers,
>>>>   I _need_ the line folding protocol.  If the prefixes
>>>>   are bing introduced, I need a way to deal with both the
>>>>   prefixes _and_ the line-folding protocol, not have it
>>>>   be either-or.  I understand that mose people don't
>>>>   see a problem, but I work with software both on new computers
>>>>   and very, very old computers (e.g. I just brought an Indigo
>>>>   back to life).
>>>   I don't see a problem specific to line-folding and prefixes.  Not even
>>>   for very old compilers.  I do appreciate that some old compilers present
>>>   issues for text processing in general, and that these manifest in the
>>>   context of CIF.  I think most of us do, else CIF 2.0 would be different.
>>>>     I repeat my suggestion that we need to meet and talk things
>>>>   out.  Maybe then I will understand what the rest of you are trying
>>>>   to do, and maybe I will be able to explain what I am trying
>>>>   to do.
>>>   It was my understanding that there would indeed be opportunities for
>>>   those who attend Madrid to meet, and I hope that at least one such
>>>   meeting happens.  It will bear more fruit the better its participants
>>>   can prepare for it, however.  If I were going to be present, then I
>>>   would want to have as specific an idea as possible of the topics to be
>>>   covered.  Bringing those up here, in advance, would have the added
>>>   advantage of including, at least to some extent, group members who
>>>   otherwise would be shut out.
>>>   Regards,
>>>   John
>>>   --
>>>   John C. Bollinger, Ph.D.
>>>   Department of Structural Biology
>>>   St. Jude Children's Research Hospital
>  >>
>>>   Email Disclaimer: 
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>   Herbert J. Bernstein, Professor of Computer Science
>     Dowling College, Kramer Science Center, KSC 121
>         Idle Hour Blvd, Oakdale, NY, 11769
>                   +1-631-244-3035
>                   <mailto:yaya@dowling.edu>yaya@dowling.edu
>ddlm-group mailing list
>ddlm-group mailing list

  Herbert J. Bernstein, Professor of Computer Science
    Dowling College, Kramer Science Center, KSC 121
         Idle Hour Blvd, Oakdale, NY, 11769

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