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Re: Result of CIF2 vote

DDLm-group is no less transparent than this group, and consists of
people with an interest in the topic.  DDLm discussions can be
lengthy, and I see no reason to disturb COMCIFS members with no
interest in the details. It is also convenient to have all emails
concerning DDLm archived separately for the record.

I have now sent a couple of emails to DDLm-group regarding string
eliding and everyone is welcome to study them through the web
interface, and join DDLm-group should they wish.

James.

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Herbert J. Bernstein
<yaya@bernstein-plus-sons.com> wrote:
> Why not just say what those issues are?  If COMCIFS is to vote on
> the CIF2 proposal, and there are serious issues, shouldn't they
> be fully and transparently on the table for everybody to see
> and discuss, or won't we just be going into a loop on this, with
> the DDLm group saying one thing and COMCIFS not agreeing?
>
> I support both the CIF2 draft and Ralf's proposed revision to it.
> I think it is a very good improvement.
>
> As I understand it, what Ralf has proposed is a clean, specific
> modification to the wording of change 7, which currently reads:
>
> =======================
> "CHANGE 7 ? NEW
> Triplequote delimited strings.
>
> The ASCII """ sequence (alternatively ASCII ''') delimits the
> beginning of a string that may contain any printable character and
> whitespace and is terminated by  the first subsequent """ sequence
> (alternatively '''). CIF2 does not specify any  interpretation of the
> contents of
> the string. The string can contain separable " and "" characters,
> (alternatively ' and ''). Clearly, the string within cannot contain
> an ASCII """ (or  alternatively ASCII ''').
>
> For example
>
> """He said "His name is O'Hearly"."""
>
> '''In {\bf \TeX} the accents are \' and \".'''
>
> The string values are, He said "His name is O'Hearly". and In {\bf \TeX}
> the accents are \' and \".. No interpretation of any elides is
> undertaken; this is the responsibility of the calling application.
> The triple quote  string supports embedded newlines, which are
> considered part of the string.
>
> =======================
>
> His revised wording (with one correction) is:
>
> ========================
>
> CHANGE 7 NEW
>
>
> Triple-quote delimited strings.
>
> The following ASCII sequences delimit the beginning of a string:
>
>     """
>     '''
>     r"""
>     r'''
>     u"""
>     u'''
>
> The characters following the delimiter sequence are interpreted
> with exactly the same algorithm as implemented for triple-quoted
> strings in the Python programming language version 2 series.
> In this algorithm, triple-quoted strings are terminated by matching
> """ or ''' delimiters.
>
> For example
>
>     """He said "His name is O'Hearly"."""
>     r'''In {\bf \TeX} the accents are \' and \".'''
>
> Triple-quoted strings provide a reliable mechanism for storing any
> arbitrary string in a CIF2 file.
>
> =========================
>
> This is cleaner and simpler than the original change 7 wording.
> It probably does not conflict with existing CIF1 documents and the
> _only_ CIF2 documents it can conflict with are the very few
> that happen to end in \""" or \''''.  The new leading delimiters
> r""", r''', u""" and u''' will have to be added to the list of forbidden
> starts to white-space delimited data values in change 5.  In exchange for
> this minor adjustments to valid CIF2 syntax we gain a fully documented,
> software supported way to include arbitrary strings in a CIF2 document
> that people are already used to working with.
>
> I have reviewed the discussion of the "use of elides in strings"
> thread in the ddlm-group discussion list, and, while I did not
> then and do not now understand the objections to the general use
> of elides in quoted strings, I particularly do not understand
> the logic of objecting to the use of elides in treble-quoted strings,
> which are a construct completely new to CIF and therefore in
> conflict with no existing data files.
>
> Would those who have an objection to Ralf's proposal please
> state their objections.  An objection that says we object because
> in past discussions another body could not manage to come to an
> agreement and just gave up does not speak to the merits of this
> specific proposal.
>
>
> Regards,
>   Herbert
>
>
>
>
>
> At 12:41 AM +1100 1/1/11, James Hester wrote:
>>Dear COMCIFS: I cannot support Ralf's suggestion immediately.  I
>>anticipate issues based on previous discussions in the DDLm group, and
>>will address them in that forum.
>>
>>Happy New Year
>>James.
>>
>>On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:53 PM, Herbert J. Bernstein
>><yaya@bernstein-plus-sons.com> wrote:
>>>  Dear Colleagues,
>>>
>>>    We might save some time if the other voting members of COMCIFS
>>>  were to express there views on Ralf's suggestion for the
>>>  wording change for change 7 immediately.  I support it.  If
>>>  a majority of COMCIFS support it right now, we are in a much less
>>>  ambiguous position than if it is a minority position, and
>>>  can try to make very real progress on coding before Madrid,
>>>
>>>    Regards,
>>>      Herbert
>>>
>>>
>>>  =====================================================
>>>   Herbert J. Bernstein, Professor of Computer Science
>>>     Dowling College, Kramer Science Center, KSC 121
>>>          Idle Hour Blvd, Oakdale, NY, 11769
>>>
>>>                   +1-631-244-3035
>>>                   yaya@dowling.edu
>>>  =====================================================
>>>
>>>  On Fri, 31 Dec 2010, James Hester wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Dear COMCIFS members and advisers:
>>>>
>>>>  At the end of the 6-week voting period, the CIF2 draft has been
>>>>  approved 4 votes in favour, one against and one abstention.
>>>>
>>>>  While we can choose to ignore the points raised by Ralf in his
>>>>  dissenting vote, I think it would be worthwhile revisiting eliding in
>>>>  triple-quoted strings.  Such a discussion is best handled in the DDLm
>>>>  group, so if this aspect of the standard interests any of you who are
>>>>  not currently enrolled in the DDLm-group, I suggest that you contact
>>>>  Brian MacMahon to be subscribed.
>>>>
>>>>  I believe the DDLm group will be able to find a solution.  If we are
>>>>  unable to agree, then the standard as currently approved will be the
>>>>  final version.  If we do find a solution, then an amendment to Change
>>>>  7 will once again be presented to this forum for a final vote.  I
>>>>  would hope that we can produce an amendment by the end of January at
>>>>  the latest.
>>>>
>>>>  James Hester.
>>>>  --
>>>>  T +61 (02) 9717 9907
>>>>  F +61 (02) 9717 3145
>>>>  M +61 (04) 0249 4148
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>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>--
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>>F +61 (02) 9717 3145
>>M +61 (04) 0249 4148
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>
>
> --
> =====================================================
>  Herbert J. Bernstein, Professor of Computer Science
>    Dowling College, Kramer Science Center, KSC 121
>         Idle Hour Blvd, Oakdale, NY, 11769
>
>                  +1-631-244-3035
>                  yaya@dowling.edu
> =====================================================
> _______________________________________________
> comcifs mailing list
> comcifs@iucr.org
> http://scripts.iucr.org/mailman/listinfo/comcifs
>



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