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Re: Result of CIF2 vote
- To: "Discussion list of the IUCr Committee for the Maintenance of the CIFStandard (COMCIFS)" <comcifs@iucr.org>
- Subject: Re: Result of CIF2 vote
- From: James Hester <jamesrhester@gmail.com>
- Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 15:51:38 +1100
- In-Reply-To: <a06240800c943ef1a16ff@192.168.2.105>
- References: <AANLkTim0kf1pMogrN33fJ93-DaSBXJ+-yiZVbO86F9sg@mail.gmail.com><alpine.BSF.2.00.1012310746120.51867@epsilon.pair.com><AANLkTikOZzkcbg-ffBg1MJohKtW3GsL6XfNeLmadbzK9@mail.gmail.com><a06240800c943ef1a16ff@192.168.2.105>
DDLm-group is no less transparent than this group, and consists of people with an interest in the topic. DDLm discussions can be lengthy, and I see no reason to disturb COMCIFS members with no interest in the details. It is also convenient to have all emails concerning DDLm archived separately for the record. I have now sent a couple of emails to DDLm-group regarding string eliding and everyone is welcome to study them through the web interface, and join DDLm-group should they wish. James. On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Herbert J. Bernstein <yaya@bernstein-plus-sons.com> wrote: > Why not just say what those issues are? If COMCIFS is to vote on > the CIF2 proposal, and there are serious issues, shouldn't they > be fully and transparently on the table for everybody to see > and discuss, or won't we just be going into a loop on this, with > the DDLm group saying one thing and COMCIFS not agreeing? > > I support both the CIF2 draft and Ralf's proposed revision to it. > I think it is a very good improvement. > > As I understand it, what Ralf has proposed is a clean, specific > modification to the wording of change 7, which currently reads: > > ======================= > "CHANGE 7 ? NEW > Triplequote delimited strings. > > The ASCII """ sequence (alternatively ASCII ''') delimits the > beginning of a string that may contain any printable character and > whitespace and is terminated by the first subsequent """ sequence > (alternatively '''). CIF2 does not specify any interpretation of the > contents of > the string. The string can contain separable " and "" characters, > (alternatively ' and ''). Clearly, the string within cannot contain > an ASCII """ (or alternatively ASCII '''). > > For example > > """He said "His name is O'Hearly".""" > > '''In {\bf \TeX} the accents are \' and \".''' > > The string values are, He said "His name is O'Hearly". and In {\bf \TeX} > the accents are \' and \".. No interpretation of any elides is > undertaken; this is the responsibility of the calling application. > The triple quote string supports embedded newlines, which are > considered part of the string. > > ======================= > > His revised wording (with one correction) is: > > ======================== > > CHANGE 7 NEW > > > Triple-quote delimited strings. > > The following ASCII sequences delimit the beginning of a string: > > """ > ''' > r""" > r''' > u""" > u''' > > The characters following the delimiter sequence are interpreted > with exactly the same algorithm as implemented for triple-quoted > strings in the Python programming language version 2 series. > In this algorithm, triple-quoted strings are terminated by matching > """ or ''' delimiters. > > For example > > """He said "His name is O'Hearly".""" > r'''In {\bf \TeX} the accents are \' and \".''' > > Triple-quoted strings provide a reliable mechanism for storing any > arbitrary string in a CIF2 file. > > ========================= > > This is cleaner and simpler than the original change 7 wording. > It probably does not conflict with existing CIF1 documents and the > _only_ CIF2 documents it can conflict with are the very few > that happen to end in \""" or \''''. The new leading delimiters > r""", r''', u""" and u''' will have to be added to the list of forbidden > starts to white-space delimited data values in change 5. In exchange for > this minor adjustments to valid CIF2 syntax we gain a fully documented, > software supported way to include arbitrary strings in a CIF2 document > that people are already used to working with. > > I have reviewed the discussion of the "use of elides in strings" > thread in the ddlm-group discussion list, and, while I did not > then and do not now understand the objections to the general use > of elides in quoted strings, I particularly do not understand > the logic of objecting to the use of elides in treble-quoted strings, > which are a construct completely new to CIF and therefore in > conflict with no existing data files. > > Would those who have an objection to Ralf's proposal please > state their objections. An objection that says we object because > in past discussions another body could not manage to come to an > agreement and just gave up does not speak to the merits of this > specific proposal. > > > Regards, > Herbert > > > > > > At 12:41 AM +1100 1/1/11, James Hester wrote: >>Dear COMCIFS: I cannot support Ralf's suggestion immediately. I >>anticipate issues based on previous discussions in the DDLm group, and >>will address them in that forum. >> >>Happy New Year >>James. >> >>On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:53 PM, Herbert J. Bernstein >><yaya@bernstein-plus-sons.com> wrote: >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> We might save some time if the other voting members of COMCIFS >>> were to express there views on Ralf's suggestion for the >>> wording change for change 7 immediately. I support it. If >>> a majority of COMCIFS support it right now, we are in a much less >>> ambiguous position than if it is a minority position, and >>> can try to make very real progress on coding before Madrid, >>> >>> Regards, >>> Herbert >>> >>> >>> ===================================================== >>> Herbert J. Bernstein, Professor of Computer Science >>> Dowling College, Kramer Science Center, KSC 121 >>> Idle Hour Blvd, Oakdale, NY, 11769 >>> >>> +1-631-244-3035 >>> yaya@dowling.edu >>> ===================================================== >>> >>> On Fri, 31 Dec 2010, James Hester wrote: >>> >>>> Dear COMCIFS members and advisers: >>>> >>>> At the end of the 6-week voting period, the CIF2 draft has been >>>> approved 4 votes in favour, one against and one abstention. >>>> >>>> While we can choose to ignore the points raised by Ralf in his >>>> dissenting vote, I think it would be worthwhile revisiting eliding in >>>> triple-quoted strings. Such a discussion is best handled in the DDLm >>>> group, so if this aspect of the standard interests any of you who are >>>> not currently enrolled in the DDLm-group, I suggest that you contact >>>> Brian MacMahon to be subscribed. >>>> >>>> I believe the DDLm group will be able to find a solution. If we are >>>> unable to agree, then the standard as currently approved will be the >>>> final version. If we do find a solution, then an amendment to Change >>>> 7 will once again be presented to this forum for a final vote. I >>>> would hope that we can produce an amendment by the end of January at >>>> the latest. >>>> >>>> James Hester. >>>> -- >>>> T +61 (02) 9717 9907 >>>> F +61 (02) 9717 3145 >>>> M +61 (04) 0249 4148 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> comcifs mailing list >>>> comcifs@iucr.org >>>> http://scripts.iucr.org/mailman/listinfo/comcifs >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> comcifs mailing list >>> comcifs@iucr.org >>> http://scripts.iucr.org/mailman/listinfo/comcifs >>> >> >> >> >>-- >>T +61 (02) 9717 9907 >>F +61 (02) 9717 3145 >>M +61 (04) 0249 4148 >>_______________________________________________ >>comcifs mailing list >>comcifs@iucr.org >>http://scripts.iucr.org/mailman/listinfo/comcifs > > > -- > ===================================================== > Herbert J. Bernstein, Professor of Computer Science > Dowling College, Kramer Science Center, KSC 121 > Idle Hour Blvd, Oakdale, NY, 11769 > > +1-631-244-3035 > yaya@dowling.edu > ===================================================== > _______________________________________________ > comcifs mailing list > comcifs@iucr.org > http://scripts.iucr.org/mailman/listinfo/comcifs > -- T +61 (02) 9717 9907 F +61 (02) 9717 3145 M +61 (04) 0249 4148
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- References:
- Result of CIF2 vote (James Hester)
- Re: Result of CIF2 vote (Herbert J. Bernstein)
- Re: Result of CIF2 vote (James Hester)
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